Haruhi Suzumiya said:
I was honestly expecting more replies on the matter over the weekend. Oh well.
Blame Monster Hunter for that one. It's been a nonstop grind. 
ChaosTheory123 said:
We should really be cataloguing all the feats in the game in posts like I did before attempting this really
It'll be more organized that way
Thanks Haruhi for beating me to it, but they're right in the sense that they weren't really "fights".
ChaosTheory123 said:
Tidus in his own game succeeded where Jecht failed and even did so without the usage of a Final Aeon (vs a Final Aeon no less)
Even performed as well or better than Auron (Jecht's peer) vs Sin per Lulu's assertions as him potentially being the just after that fight (she doesn't say the line until after with Sin)
Yeah I was sure I was missing something in the OG in regards to Tidus. I knew there had to be something of this sort where he surpassed his father in the game. Plus, Tidus did defeat Jecht in the previous cycle. I'll admit I was taken aback by Jecht's showings in Dissidia, since he appeared to do more than Tidus, but as I said, I am also ready to concede scaling to Tidus. He did fight against heavy-hitters, especially after Kefka gets his upgrade -- and he also scored a tremendous hit on him, which in hindsight, is a great feat.
ChaosTheory123 said:
Wherever the Emperor lands Firion is his peer
Both physically and likely magically given he on the Hell Emperor
Yup. I forsee Emperor being in the "mid-tier" of universal, in part because if he was a high-Uni like Seph, it would have been likely that they'd still have been able to defeat the Trance Trio. However, also because of where I think Firion goes. Whatever the case, the difference between the characters doesn't stretch too large unless you're a low-uni vs a high-uni, it seems. Mostly, though, consider this: Lightning herself was just barely outclassed against Seph -- and that's what I imagine the Emperor or Firion would be against him as well; this backed up by the fact that Cloud was decisively stronger than Firion in the previous cycle (but it wasn't a totally uneven fight either like Seph vs Terra), before his Advent Children power-up.
So mid-uni seems to work out perfectly for FFII's combatants in my eyes.
ChaosTheory123 said:
Him shielding Tidus doesn't really mean Tidus wouldn't have been able to do the same
It was more a father acting to protect his son rather than any particular need
Can't use blocking strikes from Squall, Bartz, and Cloud as a comparison as Tidus doesn't really run into situations that compare or contradict him being able to as far as I've been shown
Conceded.
ChaosTheory123 said:
Probably Omnislash given the lead into it is to ACC
Agreed. Omnislash vs Shadow Dragon summon/merge; both their EX abilities from previous games. It makes sense, and like I said; Cloud and Golbez have history together. They fought besides one another when first awakened in 012 against Lightning and WoL to a standstill, though Cloud said that the Warriors of Chaos at the time weren't fighting for real yet. Golbez, if I recall, also commented that Cloud fought "really well despite just being awakened". So, they'd know each-other's power and would know they shouldn't f*ck with the other lightly. I guess that's why they pulled out the big guns so quickly. It's more than probable that they didn't use those against Lightning and WoL, so they needed something to surprise the other.
Well, just speculation.
ChaosTheory123 said:
He's slightly beyond Golbez, especially by TAY
Best demonstrated by vs his Dark doppleganger while basically a vegetable (hell, Golbez isn't too keen where Cecil survives it)
Noted. I'll also point-out that Golbez's and Cecil's standing is further helped by the fact that Cecil defeated Exdeath in Dissidia when he wanted to kill Golbez, because Golbez had nullified his power of the manikins.
All in all, the Cloud/Seph/Golbez/Cecil/Bartz/Exdeath level seems pretty solid.
ChaosTheory123 said:
Could you gather her other showings outside the ending cinematic?
Yeah, that's the thing. Like Haruhi showed, she only has those showings I mentioned lol. Well, I mean, there is also calming Alexander. One should consider, however, where she falls when after the kefka re-scaling is done. It may put her ahead somewhat in relation to Zidane.
ChaosTheory123 said:
CoD is powerful, doesn't necessarily mean she can't be somewhat weaker than Sephiroth
Of the Void users, she's the weakest of them in terms of what she's supposed to accomplish in her home game
That said, I can't say if other showings in the game contradict that or not
Perfect. This lines up marvelously with what I was envisioning with three different tiers of universe-level in this game. Which is just another way of saying that there are some characters who are slightly above the others by various margins. That said, I'm thinking something along the lines of CoD, Ultimecia and Exdeath defining their respective universal tiers as low, mid and high from their portrayal in the original sorta also bleeding over into NT. What universal destruction they wished to accomplish being tiered between each other might help reinforce the slightly differences between characters in NT. From what I gather, all the universal scaling we can acheive comes from them (and Shinryu I suppose), so it makes sense to make them the definitely level of those tiers.
In that case, I know what Ultimecia was attempting with Time Kompression since I have played VIII fully, and from what I know of Exdeath and considering this seems to be end-game Ex (as he says he has the power of the void right before fighting Bartz in NT), It makes a really neat distinction between who is high or low in this universe-level scale, as Exdeath was accomplishing a bolder plan than Ulti.
CoD and Onion Knight literally did nothing in NT, so there's not much to contradict it either.
ChaosTheory123 said:
Elaborate on him, I don't really have any context on him outside the little I see in the end cutscene
Hope I managed to answer this question above. He briefly fights in NT, even in the ending cutscene, so we have little to go with. I think, however, because of Cloud's past performance against Firion, it's fair to say that Sephiroth pulled a little more weight than him against the Trance Trio.
ChaosTheory123 said:
WoL is Garland's equal more or less from the little I've seen
Agreed. I have given some thought to them, and in this game here, their scaling is a bit harmed because they seem to not really be going all-out against one-another. Garland would be the strongest thing ever if he indeed managed to knock down a 3-team hero in a 1v3, especially one which likely contained someone around Golbez's level (slightly stronger) like Cecil.
Although they were all roughed-up from the fighting, it seems their hearts weren't really into it, as they stopped for no real reason to chat and then aligned just as easily. So, giving Garland a 3v1 scaling seems a slight stretch. In past Dissidia, he has fought Lightning and WoL to a standstill (much like Cloud and Golbez), though again the Warriors of Chaos were holding back. Fought Lightning's group again, and in NT crosses swords with her and Noctis.
So, I guess, mid-level is about right for him -- if we ignore him apparently solo'ing 3 strong heroes.
One interesting point though: Cloud and Garland have fought in the past, in one of 012's special unrealeased quests. Apparently Cloud won, but was frustrated as he knew that Garland was holding back for the folliwng reason that "there would be no point in them killing each-other", somewhat implying that they were equals in 012. If this still holds for NT, I'm not sure. Cloud in Dissidia 012 was likely the Cloud from before AC, so he didn't have his final power-up yet. Interestingly as well, WoL in Dissidia 1 also managed to fight Seph to a standstill -- but as this was likely not AC Sephiroth, I'm also unsure if he gets NT Seph scaling.
What I mean to say is, I'm unsure if we should or not give him and WoL high-uni from Cecil, Sephiroth and Cloud in NT. The more conservative option would be to scale him to Lightning, as she was her rival in 012 and traded blows with him in NT. However, to me, it seems both positions may have some merit, though I lean a little more towards conservativism.
ChaosTheory123 said:
Y'shtola blocked a Particle Beam from CoD so they're at least peers.
What's Y'shtola's original power like? I actually don't know if this helps her or not. I don't have a clue even if Kefka gets scaling from her.
ChaosTheory123 said:
Vaan I have no clue given the only sh*t I saw for him was vs Kefka with Pyroclasm and Tidus using Blitz Ace with it
Can't say he gets scaling to Kefka. The clown fought him, Onion Knight and Y'shtola together, practically. It's possible that the three of them are low-uni, which would make Kefka at least mid-uni, perhaps even bordering on high.
Onion Knight briefly engaged Exdeath, though he didn't actually do much, so I suppose it doesn't contradict this.
ChaosTheory123 said:
Kefka's probably about to get a boost from XIV and maybe be on Neo Exdeath's tier as God Kefka. His regular form before transforming should still be comparable or beyond Base Terra per how the end game confrontation in his tower goes with him and sh*t.
Considering he managed to face 3 heroes and tag-teamed against Tidus, Shantotto and Firion, it's very likely that he may bump up to High-uni. However, this makes Terra defeating him in the previous cycles a bit weird given even her performance in Trance against Seph/Emp. The only reason I don't readily bump him to high is due to Terra previously defeating him, I think.
ChaosTheory123 said:
Noctis hilariously trades blows with Ulti and Exdeath and works with Lightning to block an attack from Sephiroth (we don't see the result, but if they failed that's one decent durability feat)
Hmm. I guess it would be fair to call him a peer to Lightning?
~
So, provisional tally can be updated:
"Low" - Universe
base Terra, base Zidane, base Kuja, Onion Knight, Cloud of Darkness, Vaan, Y'shtola.
"Mid" - Universe
Firion, Trance Terra, Trance Zidane, Trance Kuja, Emperor Mateus, Lightning, Noctis, WoL, Garland, Kefka, Ultimecia, Squall.
"High" - Universe
Lady Shantotto, Cloud, Sephiroth, Golbez, Cecil, Jecht, Tidus, Exdeath, Bartz.
Taken with the above caveats which may change some positions from mid to high.
~
Haruhi Suzumiya said:
I think the only question is what you do with the Cloud of Darkness and possible scaling from it. Aside from being interrupted by Shantotto, its feats are clashing with Terra's melee attack and having its Particle Beam blocked by Y'shtola's barrier (and the Shinryu stuff). But I think it's important not to disregard the Shinryu feats which would require a multiversal to do.
If we want to excuse the Shinryu feats, we can use comic logic and just say that Materia, Spiritus, the Cloud of Darkness, and Y'shtola did all of the heavy work, but this goes against what Meteria says at the end when she claims that her warriors (not just Y'shtola) were instrumental in Shinryu's defeat. If we count the multiversal feats up:
1) characters blocking the energy wave released by Shinryu
2) everyone surviving (and being in fighting shape, presumably) the outer Shinryu's explosion, which was able to break a construct made by Materia
3) being able to harm Shinryu in battle after Shinryu himself appears.
4) Terra clashing with the Cloud of Darkness
5) Y'shtola blocking Particle Beam
6?) Shantotto blowing through that ball
7) Terra and Y'shtola getting out unscathed in the aftermath of Ultimecia's and the Cloud of Darkness's magic ball exploding
I think the last one is overlooked a bit, but that energy doesn't just disappear or get negated because Shantotto overpowered it early. The energy was already there and was pushed and detonated elsewhere, but the two girls were still caught within the blast. Yes, it's weaker than if they were at the center, but it's a multiversal attack presumably.
So they are a bit spread out but still present.
I'm confused though. I was under the impression that CoD was lower than Exdeath and Ulti on the universe scale? If she's multiversal, as you say, that would throw my view up on its head. Which is possible. How does her original FFIII feats scale against Ulti and Exdeath's original VIII and V feats?
Haruhi Suzumiya said:
Memories should at least still be representative of the characters, right?
Or is there info I'm missing?
This, however, is a question more important than tiering-out NT. Do the canon versions get the scaling?
Haruhi brings-out the counter-point: "Not anymore than they were in the original Dissidia games, which isn't currently accepted as representative. Plus, Materia gives them some powet at the end to at least awaken them." And this is true.
The fact is that the mechanisms for Dissidia's storyline have never changed, but what's been changing is our perception of them and the way Square's executing it. Before, when our characters possessed no memories, it was easy to write them off as projected memories or some kind of multiversal variant. Now that we have Lightning acknowledging previous cycles, and we have Cloud and Sephiroth in canonical AC/C gear, this assumption breaks down a little. The interview I posted from a millenia ago was often interpreted to have Dissidia give no bearing on canon -- but that itself wasn't an objective interpretation of what the director said, but a cumulation with the lucid-dreaming feeling that Dissidia gave, which separated it from the franchise.
Imo, now, especially considering it being stated that they "represent their end-game selves", the scenario has shifted a bit. These characters seem more like our canon characters. They no longer seem to be regarded as projected memories by the developers, as they're giving them the representation of our canon character's accomplished selves.
And STILL, this has nothing to do with the discussion of if our canon characters are being equalized and empowered by memories. The truth is I just don't know, we don't have enough information to categorically say that yes: FFIV Golbez gets universe-level scaling from blocking Bartz in Dissidia. Although the scenario is definitely changing to accomodate that.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that although I don't want to be a fence-sitter and take no meaningful side, I can't overcome the prudence of working with what we've got. What we've gained in NT bridges the gap, but imo does not yet allow us to scale the canon heroes to this new universe-level that they would all share in varied degrees.
Like Chaos said, would show at least who's "more skilled", although that's a pyrrhic victory, if anything, considering the potential of scaling NT could offer FF as a whole; significantly upgrading its standing as a verse to contain varying degrees of unorthodox universe-level combatants seldom used as such in the Battledome; opening the way to a ton of interesting and new discussion.
~
Just a final note that I've been thinking. In NT, Cloud has a "new" attack called Cherry Blossom Slash. This, however, is actually an attack that Cloud had in FF Tactics.
I've spoken before of FF Tactics and FFVII being related, and that Cloud's appearence there was, to some degree, canon; due to it being mentioned in the Ultimania of FFVII, and it fitting exactly into the point where the Northern Crater explodes and Cloud falls down to the Lifestream near the planet's core, going missing until the re-surfacing in Mideel. The reapearrance of Cherry Blossom Slash not only seems to indicate the powerful magic Limit as Cloud's strongest "spell-like" ability, but also that his stint in Tactics wa definitely canon.
Now, he doesn't actually do anything that we can verify in the game other than spaz out because he's literally crazy. We don't know if he even follows Ramza for real after they meet or if he immeditately goes back home. His description in Tactics states his Limits are incredibly powerful and "unmatched" in martial prowess; but he can, as a character, probably be matched by Ramza as another protagonist since there are other classes with similar descriptions of "unrivaled" power to Cloud's SOLDIER class. Although, stating once again: Cloud does nothing in the game except hold his head in pain from searing memories breaking-up a collapsed and non-existent ego. Considering Ramza's presence in NT, this seems right. I grant you, this is the flimsiest justification possible for giving Ramza high-universe scaling, but we should at least consider it.
At the very least, it gives Cloud a very long-range, extremely powerful pure magic attack (since it's supposedly on the level of Omnislash) to work with (that sh*t is f*cking GLOBAL RANGE in NT, goddamn).
